Curse

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Hello all. I have a suggestion.

I think that shields should provide NO additional armor unless the requirement is met. So, a player with nothing in a Shield Attribute would receive 0 Armor as opposed to 8 armor. My reason for this is two fold. The first reason and it's purely selfish; it will make low requirement shields worth more. The second and it has everything to do with game play; is that it will help in certain PvP formats to speed up matches. You want the armor bonus? You have to put in the points.

Ultimately I would like for every weapon/shield/focus in the game to offer no stat bonuses unless the requirement is met. For example, if a Caster has a Spear with a 10% furious mod and +5 energy, the only way they would receive these bonuses is if they had 9 in spear mastery for a req. 9 spear. same would go for swords/shields/focus items etc.

We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way? It doesn't involve any skill changes but does change equipment in a way that would make the game better in my opinion.

EDIT: I see that some people like this and some don't. Fair enough. What if you got the half armor bonus with half the points poured into the requirement and it would round up? So, for example, a req 9 Tactics Shield would require you to raise Tactics to 5 in order to get half the armor. I don't like this, but there should be a compromise.

Mia Clemons · Aug 25, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

bad suggestion. what about those characters that are < level 20? they might not meet the req on their weapon/scepter/shields/etc. Plus its not a huge issue in pvp. +8 armor for monks is not an issue, its standard pvp. . Plus your talking about something thats purely virtual. In real world application, a shield would still protect against incoming arrows, even if just a little; therefore, +8 armor is understandable for someone not using more attr points in it.

/not signed

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia Clemons

bad suggestion. what about those characters that are < level 20? they might not meet the req on their weapon/scepter/shields/etc. Plus its not a huge issue in pvp. +8 armor for monks is not an issue, its standard pvp.

/not signed

they use something that they do meet the req. on. also, if its not a big deal, i wouldn't see people buying blue q8 shields for upwards of 100k all the time. it's standard pvp for a reason.

Lanier · Aug 25, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I dont know... In some ways i really like this idea. It sure would be nice to see an end to those monks running around with tormented shields and voltaic spears. However, I really like slower paced games more than faster paced games, so im going to have to /notsign.

Shayne Hawke · Aug 25, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I would only support this if all PvP equipment could be manufactured at any requirement level at or below nine and the max damage range, armor, or energy given was toned down to fit.

Captain Krompdown · Aug 25, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I'm all for this and have been for a long time. Characters should only be able to use equipment that's appropriate to their class and attribute. There's no way that a caster with 0 strength should be able to pick up a shield that requires 13 str and get anything out of it. They shouldn't even be able to equip it. They're simply not manly enough.

Masmar · Aug 25, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Bad idea.
I'll put it into perspective.
I've had no training with a shield, but if somebody tried to straight up hit me with a sword id be able to block them if it wasnt to complicated or advanced, same as in game, where you don't get the full out of the shield unless you meet the "training" requirement

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masmar

Bad idea.
I'll put it into perspective.
I've had no training with a shield, but if somebody tried to straight up hit me with a sword id be able to block them if it wasnt to complicated or advanced, same as in game, where you don't get the full out of the shield unless you meet the "training" requirement

and by this logic would Shadow Form sins automatically know how to use a staff that they didn't meet the requirement of? Most of the time they are getting the 20% enchants benefit and energy benefit without having any points at all in them. I think this needs to change.

Desert Rose · Aug 25, 2010, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way?

How does it improve or add balance?
Currently this mechanic allows the use of a defensive set and rewards player that switch between weapon sets.

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

How does it improve or add balance?
Currently this mechanic allows the use of a defensive set and rewards player that switch between weapon sets.

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

Masmar · Aug 25, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

and by this logic would Shadow Form sins automatically know how to use a staff that they didn't meet the requirement of? Most of the time they are getting the 20% enchants benefit and energy benefit without having any points at all in them. I think this needs to change.

Yes i think so, in most cases (fantasy stories etc) magic comes from the person, which in this case is energy. The staff then usually acts as an amplifier and something to channel that energy through, so i do think it makes perfect sense

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

So? Everyone gets the bonus.
It adds depth to the game, makes it more interesting

End · Aug 25, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

Except having a clue since...in PvP most people are idiots and you'll see them dying on their 40/40 and in PvE it dosent really matter xD

fr.aodhan · Aug 25, 2010, 06:37 PM // 18:37

As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.

However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here.

When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute.

Desert Rose · Aug 25, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

You are fairly mistaken here.
If you're running around with a shield 24/7 you don't get the boni of a focus, and if you're running around with a focus 24/7 you don't get the boni of a shield; you have to switch accordingly to get the maximum benefit from both.

Astral_Nomad · Aug 25, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

Hello all. I have a suggestion.

I think that shields should provide NO additional armor unless the requirement is met. So, a player with nothing in a Shield Attribute would receive 0 Armor as opposed to 8 armor. My reason for this is two fold. The first reason and it's purely selfish; it will make low requirement shields worth more. The second and it has everything to do with game play; is that it will help in certain PvP formats to speed up matches. You want the armor bonus? You have to put in the points.

Ultimately I would like for every weapon/shield/focus in the game to offer no stat bonuses unless the requirement is met. For example, if a Caster has a Spear with a 10% furious mod and +5 energy, the only way they would receive these bonuses is if they had 9 in spear mastery for a req. 9 spear. same would go for swords/shields/focus items etc.

We all complain about balance and how hard it is to achieve, why not add some balance this way? It doesn't involve any skill changes but does change equipment in a way that would make the game better in my opinion.

EDIT: I see that some people like this and some don't. Fair enough. What if you got the half armor bonus with half the points poured into the requirement and it would round up? So, for example, a req 9 Tactics Shield would require you to raise Tactics to 5 in order to get half the armor. I don't like this, but there should be a compromise.

Has nobody remembered the fact that thats what the req's are about? The wiki itself says that anyone can use any weapon.. BUT... those NOT MEETING the required attrib levels WILL NOT be able to deal FULL damage... Its something like 1/2 damage if you have less that the minimum req. They arent getting their moneys worth out of it either way.

Karate Jesus · Aug 25, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

No. That's how everything in GW has worked....since forever.

Foci give some energy even if you don't meet the requirement, shields give some armor, etc.

It's always been that way and there's no reason to change it.

*lemming* · Aug 25, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Reducing midline armor by 13 would actually go a pretty long way in dealing with armor stacking.

Still doesn't do anything about monks though.

Grumpy Bear · Aug 25, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I dont know... In some ways i really like this idea. It sure would be nice to see an end to those monks running around with tormented shields and voltaic spears. However, I really like slower paced games more than faster paced games, so im going to have to /notsign.

I don't see why it matters if monks have torm weps and voltaic spears. They are generally used for more than a way to show off epeen, seems to be jealously rather than a vailid point for an arguement.

On-topic: I fail to see how this will make the game any more balanced, in my opinion it only further imbalances it. Why should squishy profs be made even squishier (profs with 60 armour). When you're getting beat on by a war, why shouldn't you have some extra def against him without having to spend the att points? Why should a war have to spend the points so he can use a spear to build adren? Also going off your theory, anet would have to introduce staves for sin atts like Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes so they can use the enchantments they have in those attributes.

jazilla · Aug 25, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

As an approximation, the +8 armor from an unmodded shield is about a 13% reduction in damage. If you meet the requirement and get +16, there's a 24% reduction in damage. If you receive 100 damage (before the shield) and don't meet the requirement, you take 87 damage. If you have the attribute, you receive 76 damage. The qualified guy resisted 24 points, twice what the unqualified guy resisted, which makes sense in a certain way.

However, for spending the points, you take only 13% less damage than the guy who doesn't meet the requirements. This does seem really disproportionate. If I spend 8, 9, 10 points on an attribute, the skills should give me more than a 12% improvement over someone who uses the skills without paying into the attribute. If a Fire Magic 8 Flare did 87 damage but a Fire Magic 0 Flare did 76 damage, you might reasonably consider running Fire Magic 0 with points elsewhere - which is precisely the case here.

When I look at it this way, it's a little skewed. However, every monk in PvP pays dearly for who they are, even if it's not reflected in the numbers. Theory doesn't take into account the fact that the monks will need the shield more than those who are likely able to spec into its attribute.

this guy put it way better than i ever could.

SkekSister · Aug 25, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

but its rewarding players with bonuses that they don't have to do anything for.

Incorrect, they have to give up their main and offhand spots for the duration of time they have the shield set equipped, foregoing the bonuses that their normal attribute met 40/40 (or whatever) set would normally give them.

I'd call that a fairly large sacrifice for what .. 8 armour points?

As said above, GW was designed this way. I don't think the change would benefit the game.